Discussion:
Message about no boxmen at CP
(too old to reply)
MoneyLA
2004-08-25 08:54:14 UTC
Permalink
Hi and thanks to the group member who emailed me about CP eliminating boxmen.
I tried to email you but the email bounced back. Here is my reply:

Hi. I don't know if you saw one of my posts from about a week ago, where I
mentioned that at Caesars about two weekends ago there were some tables without
a boxman during slow times.

Im shocked to find out that the boxmen are gone-- and for several reasons.

One, I liked the guys and the gals.

Second, a boxman makes the game smoother.

Im really surprised and Im not happy about this.

thanks,

cheers, alan
MoneyLA
2004-08-25 09:27:39 UTC
Permalink
WEll, it's true. I just called the craps pit at Caesars and was told that they
were eliminated on Monday.

I've put in a call to management to complain, and I've also sent an email.
Next, a letter.

I'm scheduled to go there this Thursday for another weekend, and believe me --
I'm going to seek out a manager about this.

cheers, alan
MoneyLA
2004-08-25 10:12:30 UTC
Permalink
Also in www.moredeals.com in the "notebook" section.
alan
2004-08-26 19:59:42 UTC
Permalink
I got a phone call this morning from the casino manager at Caesars,
Jimmy Wycke, who expressed to me that eliminating boxmen is a new
trend for casinos and Caesars was going along with the trend. And
that they have the best dealers in the world and they don't believe
there will be any drop in customer service.

I said yes, they do have the best dealers, but having a boxman allows
the dealers to keep up the best customer service. I've also played at
casinos without boxmen, including the MGM casinos, and I didn't like
it. I said that boxmen protect not only the players but also the
casino. Eliminating them is a mistake.

Everything was cordial.

If MGM and Caesars can do it... no doubt it will be a national
situation within the year.

Any ideas?

cheers, alan
TeddysDad
2004-08-27 00:00:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by alan
I got a phone call this morning from the casino manager at Caesars,
Jimmy Wycke, who expressed to me that eliminating boxmen is a new
trend for casinos and Caesars was going along with the trend. And
that they have the best dealers in the world and they don't believe
there will be any drop in customer service.
I said yes, they do have the best dealers, but having a boxman allows
the dealers to keep up the best customer service. I've also played at
casinos without boxmen, including the MGM casinos, and I didn't like
it. I said that boxmen protect not only the players but also the
casino. Eliminating them is a mistake.
Everything was cordial.
If MGM and Caesars can do it... no doubt it will be a national
situation within the year.
Any ideas?
cheers, alan
Two ideas: A) Play, and take advantage; B) Poker rooms.
winnah 5
2004-08-27 04:05:35 UTC
Permalink
Hi alan, I am not sure what ideas you're looking for. Like it or not,
eliminating boxmen is "in" and what else can the casino manager say? He is
certainly not going to admit that customer service will undoubtedly suffer
as a result. IMHO, what's more alarming is the bigger trend - the 6/5
payoff in BJ, the rising table minimums, the reduction in odds mulitples
etc. It's quite clear that The Strip is no longer going after the
traditional table game players. When a casino is run like a McDonald
restaurant, service is not what the owner loses sleep on.

I'll be curious what Steve Wynn will do with his new casino. He's not one
afraid to set new trends.

-- winnah 5
Post by alan
I got a phone call this morning from the casino manager at Caesars,
Jimmy Wycke, who expressed to me that eliminating boxmen is a new
trend for casinos and Caesars was going along with the trend. And
that they have the best dealers in the world and they don't believe
there will be any drop in customer service.
I said yes, they do have the best dealers, but having a boxman allows
the dealers to keep up the best customer service. I've also played at
casinos without boxmen, including the MGM casinos, and I didn't like
it. I said that boxmen protect not only the players but also the
casino. Eliminating them is a mistake.
Everything was cordial.
If MGM and Caesars can do it... no doubt it will be a national
situation within the year.
Any ideas?
cheers, alan
Joe Schmoe
2004-08-27 14:47:06 UTC
Permalink
It's a good opening for cheaters. Also now when you have an argument
over a payout, there won't be a boxman sitting there to settle things,
i.e. someone who might have seen what happened. Maybe they will just
stop the game for 5 minutes while they go upstairs to look at the tape.
Post by alan
I got a phone call this morning from the casino manager at Caesars,
Jimmy Wycke, who expressed to me that eliminating boxmen is a new
trend for casinos and Caesars was going along with the trend. And
that they have the best dealers in the world and they don't believe
there will be any drop in customer service.
I said yes, they do have the best dealers, but having a boxman allows
the dealers to keep up the best customer service. I've also played at
casinos without boxmen, including the MGM casinos, and I didn't like
it. I said that boxmen protect not only the players but also the
casino. Eliminating them is a mistake.
Everything was cordial.
If MGM and Caesars can do it... no doubt it will be a national
situation within the year.
Any ideas?
cheers, alan
MoneyLA
2004-08-30 06:18:03 UTC
Permalink
Joe, wrote about the need to stop the game for 5 minutes while they check the
tape. Well, how about 45 minutes?? Thats exactly what happened Friday night
at Caesars.

I went back there this weekend, to check out the no-boxman situation.

here is a copy of the article from the Las Vegas Review Journal, with plenty of
quotes from me.

I also spoke to top management in person in the casino Saturday night. They
are sticking to their resolve.

the article:

GamingWire August 27,2004


A product of Stephens Media Interactive.


Copyright 2004 GamingWire. All rights reserved.


By ROD SMITH
GAMING WIRE

Question: How many employees typically work a craps table?

Answer: Four ... er ... well not so fast there, buddy.

Another longtime Las Vegas tradition is starting to see the dice come up snake
eyes as several gaming companies move to eliminate the box man position at
craps tables.

The latest victims were 26 box men at Caesars Palace, which eliminated the
decades-old jobs on Monday as part of a cost-saving move, Caesars Entertainment
spokeswoman Stacy Solovey said.

The trend is industrywide. Box men sit behind chip and money boxes in the
middle of the table and oversee all cash transactions, catch mistakes and
decide any disputes between players and table workers. Their elimination is
part of a trend mainly aimed at cost-control, sources said, because of better
electronic surveillance technology.

"We've already done it at Paris (Las Vegas) and Bally's (in September 2003) and
the Flamingo (November 2002)," Solovey said.

"We're consolidating the positions. Floor supervisors and craps dealers,
usually three at a table, will take on the responsibilities of the box men,"
Solovey said.

MGM Mirage spokesman Alan Feldman said his company has eliminated some box man
positions, particularly at MGM Grand and New York-New York although they are
still used at Bellagio, The Mirage and Treasure Island.

"By and large, this is a response to technology. The ability to surveil games
with cameras renders the box positions somewhat irrelevant," he said.

Many craps players, however, are unhappy with the reorganization of the craps
areas both because they see the box men as playing a critical referee function
and because it could be a harbinger of things to come.

Jack Hood, a 20-year Caesars Palace veteran craps player and a self-employed
businessman from Valparaiso, Ind., said the efficiencies for the casino owners
will slow the games and hurt customer service.

"I don't really understand why they're doing it because it's always been a must
position. It seems as if it's wrong, but the casino world is changing fast."

Other customers and casino hosts who asked not to be named explained the
"eye-in-the-sky" surveillance cameras casino officials say can replace the box
men are inferior substitutes because someone will still have to spot mistakes
made by the craps dealers or stick men. Further, they argue it can take days to
chase down a tape and review it to rule on disputes.

Alan Mendelson, a regular craps player at Caesars Palace and a Los Angeles
newsman who has seen the effects of cutting box men positions at MGM Grand
first hand, said the move has hampered play at the casino.

"I saw it there, and it was a pain in the ass. It's bad for players and for the
casino. As a frequent visitor and player at Caesars, I'm very disappointed and
surprised," he said.

"Box men are necessary for the game, to protect both the casino and the
customers and to keep the game moving smoothly," he said.

The trend has been evident for a couple of years, Mendelson said, and swore
that casinos that eliminate box men will all lose him as a customer.

"I think the whole thing is a shame. Every casino on the Strip has good dealers
and stick men, but there are times when they make a mistake. The box men are
good at catching them. It's real important in today's culture of customer
service," Mendelson said.

Mendelson said the craps tables are the wrong place to be cutting back.

At least one other major operator in Las Vegas agrees with players like
Mendelson and said its casinos have not eliminated the positions and won't.

Boyd Gaming Corp. spokesman Rob Stillwell said an important component of
customer service would be lost if his company eliminated its box men positions.


"The pit responsibilities evolve with technology, but the box man is one of the
positions that we won't change. Customer service is one of the biggest
considerations because it's a primary function," he said.

Mendelson said the moves is particularly ill-timed because of the rapid growth
of tribal gaming in California and the likelihood of expanded gaming there by
January.

Las Vegas operators need to underscore the quality of the casino experience
here, Mendelson said.

"The little old ladies from California won't be going here anymore. You've got
to keep the high-end games to differentiate Las Vegas from California," he
said.


**********
cheers, alan
Bob R
2004-08-30 18:44:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by MoneyLA
"We've already done it at Paris (Las Vegas) and Bally's (in September 2003) and
the Flamingo (November 2002)," Solovey said.
I was at Bally's last month and didn't notice this. There was a floor person at
the table the entire time I was playing. Maybe it was a slow time and so the
floor person was hanging out at the table.

What I have noticed at the Hilton is that there are no chairs but the pit has
enough people that there is usually someone standing at the table handling money
issues, etc. Maybe Ceasars is just handling it very badly (could the staff is
doing that on purpose as a protest?)
Bob R
2004-08-27 14:55:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by alan
Any ideas?
This will probably only happen in areas where there is a cluster of craps tables
in action and someone can walk around between them. That means the smaller the
place you play the less likely it is to happen. (of course, they won't have
Celine Dion either...)

In the event of the a player dispute I expect the dealers will get quite surly
because they are supposed to be able to settle it themselves. If people want
satisfaction they have to push back with enough force to get their dispute
escalated beyond the "tier 1" customer service.
Mr. V
2004-08-27 19:41:33 UTC
Permalink
Newspaper article on point.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2004/Aug-27-Fri-2004/news/24621012.html

roll dem bones
PlnoCowboy
2004-08-27 20:07:33 UTC
Permalink
<<<Alan Mendelson, a regular craps player at Caesars Palace and a Los Angeles
newsman who has seen the effects of cutting box men positions at MGM Grand
first hand, said the move has hampered play at the casino. "I saw it there, and
it was a pain in the ass. It's bad for players and for the casino. As a
frequent visitor and player at Caesars, I'm very disappointed and surprised,"
he said.
"Box men are necessary for the game, to protect both the casino and the
customers and to keep the game moving smoothly," he said. >>>

Our own "moneyla" on the gambling wire. Way to go alan..
stacy_friedman
2004-08-28 06:41:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by PlnoCowboy
<<<Alan Mendelson, a regular craps player at Caesars Palace and a Los Angeles
newsman who has seen the effects of cutting box men positions at MGM Grand
first hand, said the move has hampered play at the casino. "I saw it there, and
it was a pain in the ass. It's bad for players and for the casino. As a
frequent visitor and player at Caesars, I'm very disappointed and surprised,"
he said.
"Box men are necessary for the game, to protect both the casino and the
customers and to keep the game moving smoothly," he said. >>>
Our own "moneyla" on the gambling wire. Way to go alan..
"The trend has been evident for a couple of years, Mendelson said, and
swore that casinos that eliminate box men will all lose him as a
customer."

Really? You'll stop playing at Caesars over this?
PlnoCowboy
2004-08-28 13:02:09 UTC
Permalink
<<<You'll stop playing at Caesars over this?>>>

I wondered this too. So alan, no more Caesars? We'll see you at the Riviera
from now on?
ausound
2004-08-28 14:08:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by PlnoCowboy
<<<You'll stop playing at Caesars over this?>>>
I wondered this too. So alan, no more Caesars? We'll see you at the
Riviera from now on?
still a box at the El Cortez I take it?

mighty tasty dinner comps to be had at the El Cortez
Mason
2004-09-06 23:34:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by stacy_friedman
"The trend has been evident for a couple of years, Mendelson said, and
swore that casinos that eliminate box men will all lose him as a
customer."
Really? You'll stop playing at Caesars over this?
Stacy, there is an answer to your question in another thread!

This quote was taken "out of context" per MoneyLA (aka Mendelson).

MoneyLA did not specify the missing context of his remarks. He is
unconcerned about the apparent inconsistencies between the published reports
that were extensively quoted on this NG and his actual views. Mendelson
does not specify if any other quotes from the article were also "taken out
of context".

I infer that the crux of the matter is that the controverter depends on what
your definition of "lose" is.
--
Onward thru the fog,
Mason
Bob R
2004-08-28 17:30:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by alan
If MGM and Caesars can do it... no doubt it will be a national
situation within the year.
When I played at Mandalay Bay a few weeks ago they still had boxmen. Obviously
this may change soon with the merger, but if you want to vote with your feet it
might be a good option for a while.
John Kerr
2004-08-27 03:10:37 UTC
Permalink
I think they should get rid of the box and the dealers, just let the
players have at it by themselves....the house could charge the HA like
they do in poker. :)
I bet they would make more money, and get more action! Might need a
bouncer or two though.
Mr. V
2004-08-28 18:26:07 UTC
Permalink
While gambling yesterday at the Lucky Eagle tribal casino, I talked
with one of the table games supervisors about this issue.

To my surprise, he had never heard that any casinos were doing away
with the box.

Ah, provincialism...

My suspicion: the gambling corporations will do this, but probably not
the tribal casinos, certainly not for awhile.

roll dem bones
MoneyLA
2004-08-30 06:36:16 UTC
Permalink
Hi. It's late Sunday night and Im back from another weekend trip to Caesars --
now with no boxmen.

The craps pit is not a happy place. Floormen who used to be jovial now have
their stress meters turned to red and the dealers who used to always be
friendly are obviously and verbally upset with the situation.

One of the fired box guys came in Saturday to shake hands and say goodbye. The
pit came to a standstill as he made the rounds. He was one of the best liked
boxmen. He came to me, thanked me for the article and quotes -- echoing what
every dealer and pit suit also said.

Only top management likes this change.

I was told that at least five high rollers checked out of Caesars friday night
when they discovered the change and had problems at their tables.

All action now STOPS DEAD when there is a buy-in, a marker taken, a marker
payback, a color-up or a chip refill. I mean totally stopped --even if it's in
the middle of a hand. Chip refills can take two full minutes as dealers must
sign, count and stack the chips themselves.

Floormen who now supervise are not allowed to handle money or chips or even
sign markers -- dealers must sign markers.

Delays abound.

If there is a dispute -- it can mean asking surveillance to "re-rack the tape,"
and Friday night a dispute over a $25 chip on the 10 shut the table down for 45
minutes. No kidding.

At another table Friday night with four players with $20,000 markers, there
were so many delays that the players all colored up and left the table. All
were afraid the dice would "get cold" during the delays.

All weekend the craps pit was no longer "the happiest place on Earth," which is
what my girlfirend and I have called it in the past. Lots of gloomy faces--
players and staff.

Lots of black humor too, like when there was an incorrect payoff, a customer
might say "was that the 'no boxman' bonus?" or... "was that the 'no boxman"
discount?"

One dealer told me he thought he gave a customer a stack of red chips ($100)
for a $20 bill by mistake, and said "a boxman would have caught that.)

I threw in a $5 chip for a horn high yo for the second roll of my hand -- a 12
hit -- but the dealer locked up my chip and did not place it on the layout. I
lost the $26 payoff but did not contest it because I didn't want to cause a
delay.

Dealer/floormen talk: the delays will mean a drop in action, smaller handle or
drop box activity, and losses will exceed any savings from elimination of the
boxmen.

Top management remained cordial to me, and I had a very cordial conversation
and discussed the issue in person, face to face, on the casino floor Saturday
night. they are sticking to their guns.

Sunday afternoon when I checked out in the VIP/host office I got a cold
reception when getting the comps to settle my bill. While everything was still
comped (except for tips) it was a bit "chilly."

As we left my girlfriend said to me, "they might not want you back."

Oh, early Friday morning, when the Review Journal article came out (front page)
my host called me in my room and "invited me" to come down to the office to
read the article. He said they were upset that their decision got so much play
in the press. Others were surprised that the RJ would in fact have run such a
negative article.

Tonight on the ride back from LV I spoke to my host at Mandalay -- they still
have their hosts. he asked me when I'd be coming in.

Soon, I told him.

cheers, alan
PlnoCowboy
2004-08-30 14:15:29 UTC
Permalink
<<<As we left my girlfriend said to me, "they might not want you back.">>>

Ya'll are gonna LUV the El Cortez...Free Shrimp Cocktails 24 X 7......
Archibald Gibroni
2004-08-30 17:50:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by PlnoCowboy
<<<As we left my girlfriend said to me, "they might not want you back.">>>
Ya'll are gonna LUV the El Cortez...Free Shrimp Cocktails 24 X 7......
When did this happen?!

-AG
PlnoCowboy
2004-08-30 22:04:52 UTC
Permalink
<<<Ya'll are gonna LUV the El Cortez...Free Shrimp Cocktails 24 X 7......

When did this happen?!>>>

AG - I misspoke..They're not shrimp..
John Kerr
2004-08-30 22:26:10 UTC
Permalink
I've played craps at a table with just one dealer, no one else at all,
not even a pit critter. He payed the bets, wielded the stick, marked the
numbers, booked the center bets, and even had a joke or two to
share....he was pretty good too :). Ya'll will get use to it, life
changes!
JB
r***@webtv.net
2004-09-02 15:18:26 UTC
Permalink
Yeah, JB. I stumbled into a early morning game in Biloxi a couple years
back. T wo dealers,no stick and a pit critter that showed up about every
15 or 20 min. I liked shooting from the sticks spot. Rex
alan
2004-08-30 22:19:24 UTC
Permalink
the boxmen were all laid off monday august 23rd
Post by Archibald Gibroni
Post by PlnoCowboy
<<<As we left my girlfriend said to me, "they might not want you back.">>>
Ya'll are gonna LUV the El Cortez...Free Shrimp Cocktails 24 X 7......
When did this happen?!
-AG
Coy
2004-09-02 06:46:25 UTC
Permalink
Great report on some bad news.

I'm the guy who believes that table selection the singlemost important
determinant of whether or not someone is going to have a profitable session.
Instead of firing boxmen, the casinos should be shutting down tables, saving
money on whole crews and forcing people to fill the tables that are open. If
this were the case people would have a chance to discover something that has
been lost in the last 15 years - PLAYING CRAPS IS A SOCIAL ACTIVITY.
It is a game of teamwork. If you want to make a movie, you better get 12 -
14 people at the table and make some noise. How is it that no one
understands this anymore?

Craps needs to be a volatile experience for the casino as well. This can't
happen when the tables are half-full and constantly churning with drifters
dropping $20 or $100 on the Field. It's bad for the players to play at such
tables because they have less of a chance of encountering a good
cross-section of hot and cold action at one table. It is not good for the
casino because they are paying four people to stand around for - not much.

When you get 14 people pressing bets to bring down a table, you have
volatility for the casino, as well as the players. They are also the ones
who need to get back into the gambling business. They should have some
nights where they lose money on some tables and make money on the others.
Let them be confused and angry once again and once again understand that
they can't serve 14 people on a hot table without a boxman.



We need to gang up on them. Don't be playing at "dead" tables - only play
at "live" tables. A live table is one that you have trouble getting into
because people are having too much fun making money.
Post by alan
the boxmen were all laid off monday august 23rd
Post by Archibald Gibroni
Post by PlnoCowboy
<<<As we left my girlfriend said to me, "they might not want you back.">>>
Ya'll are gonna LUV the El Cortez...Free Shrimp Cocktails 24 X 7......
When did this happen?!
-AG
Gerd Henjes
2004-09-02 17:07:03 UTC
Permalink
Coy... where do the Casino's buy the smart dice that know:

What table they are being thrown at?

Whether there is one or a dozen players present?

What the last roll was so they could keep the table hot, cold, or choppy
based the cheering section at the table?

Whether a table is live or dead?

Gerd

P.S. My two dogs aren't that smart... working together!
Post by Coy
Great report on some bad news.
I'm the guy who believes that table selection the singlemost important
determinant of whether or not someone is going to have a profitable session.
Instead of firing boxmen, the casinos should be shutting down tables, saving
money on whole crews and forcing people to fill the tables that are open. If
this were the case people would have a chance to discover something that has
been lost in the last 15 years - PLAYING CRAPS IS A SOCIAL ACTIVITY.
It is a game of teamwork. If you want to make a movie, you better get 12 -
14 people at the table and make some noise. How is it that no one
understands this anymore?
Craps needs to be a volatile experience for the casino as well. This can't
happen when the tables are half-full and constantly churning with drifters
dropping $20 or $100 on the Field. It's bad for the players to play at such
tables because they have less of a chance of encountering a good
cross-section of hot and cold action at one table. It is not good for the
casino because they are paying four people to stand around for - not much.
When you get 14 people pressing bets to bring down a table, you have
volatility for the casino, as well as the players. They are also the ones
who need to get back into the gambling business. They should have some
nights where they lose money on some tables and make money on the others.
Let them be confused and angry once again and once again understand that
they can't serve 14 people on a hot table without a boxman.
We need to gang up on them. Don't be playing at "dead" tables - only play
at "live" tables. A live table is one that you have trouble getting into
because people are having too much fun making money.
TeddysDad
2004-09-03 00:18:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerd Henjes
What table they are being thrown at?
Whether there is one or a dozen players present?
What the last roll was so they could keep the table hot, cold, or choppy
based the cheering section at the table?
Whether a table is live or dead?
Gerd
P.S. My two dogs aren't that smart... working together!
Post by Coy
Great report on some bad news.
<Snip>

I believe that one of Crazy Reds' offspring has shown up.
Coy
2004-09-05 18:51:22 UTC
Permalink
I have five hours max to stand up and play, any night. Since I don't stand
to make more than a few dollars per decision , I prefer to play where I can
see a lot decisions every hour. Also, I don't shoot the dice at all which
aggravates my situation on half-empty tables.

I know you're going to say that a handful of people can cause just as many
decisions per hour as a full table, but I don't accept that is true in the
casino. What happens is people get discouraged and stop throwning or run
out of money, or get sore arms, or leave. Then I must wait, once again, for
new people to join the table. This is why I don't believe there are as many
decisions per hour on tables that are not well attended. This is not
necessary a problem for someone who places a lot of numbers, or for someone
who thinks of themselves as a good shooter who feels they can create wins on
any table.

Maybe at lot of people don't think table selection is important is because
they began gambling as blackjack players.
Post by TeddysDad
Post by Gerd Henjes
What table they are being thrown at?
Whether there is one or a dozen players present?
What the last roll was so they could keep the table hot, cold, or choppy
based the cheering section at the table?
Whether a table is live or dead?
Gerd
P.S. My two dogs aren't that smart... working together!
Post by Coy
Great report on some bad news.
<Snip>
I believe that one of Crazy Reds' offspring has shown up.
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